People who don't want to live forever are basically saying that at some point - and they don't take responsibility for when - not only are they going to leave you but they WANT to leave you (because if they accept death as inevitable, then no matter how much they may pursue longevity or good health, they're choosing to die rather than do whatever is necessary to live). And I can pretty much guarantee that whether they're consciously aware of it or not, they'll want you to die too. Now, why would I want to become attached to someone when I know they want to leave me and want me to die? If I said to you, "I'm going to be with you totally and exclusively for two weeks and then I'm going to leave you", how intimate do you think you'd be willing to be with me for those two weeks? How about if I said, " . . . for four years . . .". or, " . . . for ten years . . ."? Why would it be any different if I said, "I'm going to be with you totally and exclusively for the rest of my life and then I'm going to die"? How can you really feel free to give your all to someone under any circumstance where there's a clear end in sight? This is the illusion of love and relationships. That because two people love each other, that that love is going to make everything else worthwhile. We delude ourselves into believing that the fact that we're going to leave each other is less important than the fact that we're with each other right now. How little we think of ourselves, how little we think of each other, when a few moments or even years of possible happiness take precedence over each other's lives.
Having lived the last twenty years interacting with immortal people whose priority is me and them living forever, without limitations, my criteria for being with someone in an intimate, sexual living are completely different. Physical attraction is still a factor, but unless there's a committment to the expansion of our aliveness and intimacy together, a passion for a greater living, not just for ourselves but for others, and an opening to more and more people in our lives, then our intimacy is limited, our togetherness has an end, and physical attraction is irrelevant.
For me, the whole point of being with someone is to have something greater moment by moment with each other than you would have if you weren't together. That to me is real intimacy. And if you have that then there'd be no reason not to be together, there'd be no reason to stop loving each other and there'd be no reason to want it to end. This doesn't necessarily mean that you ever have to sleep together or have sex with each other, or that if you did enter into such an intimacy together that it would continue, but if you're having "something greater moment by moment with each other" why wouldn't it? What it does mean though is that you'd never have to be without each other. That's what I call commitment. And that's where I find true joy is.
Why wouldn't I want that with the people I love - not for just a few years, but forever? That's the quality of togetherness I have with my 'friends' and that's the quality of togetherness I require in a sexual relationship.
I really enjoyed this Doug!
ReplyDeleteNow... here's the part where I need some help...
"How can you really feel free to give your all to someone under any circumstance where there's a clear end in sight?"
maybe I am just too new to get it... because to me every intimate (sexual) relationship will have an end to it eventually. It just seems too unrealisitic to expect to be with the same person FOREVER. so in that case EVERY relationship has an end.
so... in my mind... not being with someone because it will end, is not a reason not to be with them. The real reason not to be with someone is more because of the subconscious (or in some cases maybe even conscious) desire for my eventual death by the other person.
and even that (again I think it is because I am pretty new) really doesnt feel like a true deterrent. If I am fully aware of what I am in and there is a truly open knowledge both ways of what we are and what we are doing... well... I don't see the error (other than clashes of the other person's belief systems).
I wouldnt say that the moments with the person would be more important than life itself. it would be more about enjoying that moment with them.
Obviously the BEST situation is when there is COMPLETE agreement and both are 100% on the same page, but I don't see a harm in the process if the whole point of being with someone is to have something greater moment by moment with each other than you would have if you weren't together.
just my opinion.
~Miouo
Hi Miouo. I feel your comments deserve a response so here it is.
ReplyDeleteFirst off these are my own feelings, not a prescription for anyone else to follow. We all have to live what we feel until we feel something different. That said, here's hopefully some clarification.
1: "How can you really feel free to give your all to someone under any circumstance where there's a clear end in sight?"
If you read further you'll see that I acknowledge that sexual intimacy may not last. The point I'm making is that if your partner is planning to die at some point, will you be with them all the way, or will you consciously or unconsciously hold back because you know they're going to die? It seems more prudent to me to find out whether any person I'm attracted to is on the same page as me before we start writing the book, and if we're not, to walk away. It may not be easy, but I'd expect it to be a lot less painful than the alternative.
2: "maybe I am just too new to get it... because to me every intimate (sexual) relationship will have an end to it eventually. It just seems too unrealisitic to expect to be with the same person FOREVER. so in that case EVERY relationship has an end.
I suspect it's because you're "too old" not because you're "too new". Believing that expecting a sexual intimacy to last forever is "unrealistic" is more than likely a response to past experiences of dysfunctional relationships. I know in the past I could never imagine allowing myself to think of being with someone for any length of time, let alone forever. I was always an advocate of "seeing how things go". A bit like the business adage: "If you fail to plan, you plan to fail". This isn't about "expecting" a sexual intimacy to last forever, it's about wanting that depth of connection necessary to make it possible. In my experience, when I've started out with the belief that a relationship won't last, it hasn't. This doesn't mean that my wanting one to will cause it to happen, but if I don't want it to, why would I even want to be with the person anyway? Anything less is temporary and that's not what I want.
3: "so... in my mind... not being with someone because it will end, is not a reason not to be with them. The real reason not to be with someone is more because of the subconscious (or in some cases maybe even conscious) desire for my eventual death by the other person."
Exactly.
4: "and even that (again I think it is because I am pretty new) really doesnt feel like a true deterrent. If I am fully aware of what I am in and there is a truly open knowledge both ways of what we are and what we are doing... well... I don't see the error (other than clashes of the other person's belief systems)."
I'm not willing to set myself up to get attached to someone who I know is going to leave me and then have to deal with the pain and suffering the inevitable separation will bring just because I would like to be with someone or I love them. Nor am I willing to walk away from my life in order to be with someone I love. Being with someone who doesn't want the same life as me is dishonest, it certainly limits joy and it promotes a split in my own body. I'm not willing to put myself through that again.
5: "I wouldnt say that the moments with the person would be more important than life itself. it would be more about enjoying that moment with them."
Which doesn't require sexual intimacy.
6: "Obviously the BEST situation is when there is COMPLETE agreement and both are 100% on the same page, but I don't see a harm in the process if the whole point of being with someone is to have something greater moment by moment with each other than you would have if you weren't together."
From my perspective, the idea that you can have something greater moment by moment with each other without that agreement is an illusion. Pursuing it makes about as much sense to me as planning to die healthy. This doesn't mean I can't enjoy people who are planning to die, I do, but it does mean that there's a limit to that enjoyment. And having a limited sexually intmate living, which is all I've ever experienced, holds no appeal for me any more..
I have no idea what I'm going to have to face in the future. What I can do though is be up-front about what I want and be willing to face everything with whomever I'm with, and outlive it and move on together, whether a sexual intimacy continues or not. Of course, I first have to get beyond writing about what I want and take some action to bring it about.
Thank you so much for your indepth reply here Doug! I really appreciate the time you took to address what I was expressing in response to your post.
ReplyDeleteI feel new. This journey is so different than the one I expected before the first time I went to an event with Matt (or before I met Matt for that matter).
I am constantly exploring and examining everything about my life. This whole love/sex/relationship thing is just one of the things I feel a lot about so it triggered a very deep response here.
I'm not unhappy in my singleness but I am not in denial that I would really love to have someone in that way.
I am glad you posted the blog and the reply to my comment. It is all of the expressions that motivate me and keep me going!
Thank you!!!! :-)